#54. I'm joined by Dani Kahil, Microsoft Business Applications practice lead at Empired, who shares the story behind one of his client projects, Lives Lived Well.
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Hi, I'm your host Neil Benson. My goal in this show is to help you slash your project budgets, reduce your delivery timelines, mitigate technical risks and create amazing, agile Microsoft Dynamics 365 and Power Platform applications.
Welcome back and thanks for joining me on another episode of the Amazing Apps show. I've had a lot of great feedback and connection requests since the last episode was published. We've even had 2500 downloads over the first two episodes. That's amazing considering the average new podcast which gets about 50 listeners in the first couple of episodes.
I'd really like this show to be like your favourite Microsoft Business Apps user group meeting. We can come to find out how to build amazing applications from other builders, like my guest in this episode, and from other customers. But you know without all those dull PowerPoint presentations and boring demos.
My guest on this episode is Dani Kahil, the state practice lead for business apps at Australian Microsoft Partner, Empired, which together with its sister company, Intergen, is one of the largest partners in the Australia New Zealand region.
Empired’s customer is Lives Lived Well, a not for profit organisation providing rehabilitation services here in Queensland and New South Wales. I've known Dani for several years and I met Jacqui and Ben from Lives Lived Well when they joined Dani to present their Microsoft Business Apps story at the Brisbane Dynamics 365 user group meeting. And it's too good a story not to share it with you.
You'll find show notes for this episode at my website, customery.com/003.
Dani is a student of my Scrum from Microsoft Business Apps course (so is Rafael Urbano at Empired who gets a mention in Dani's story). Congratulations to a couple of the Customery Academy students who recently completed the course. Luis Guzman founder of C-ven Technologies in the Dominican Republic and Matt Baum from Dynamic Consulting Group in Mississippi. Well done both of you.
OK let's get on with the show and bring on Dani Kahil from Empired.
Dani welcome to the Amazing Applications show. It's really good to have you on. Thanks for joining us.
Thank you, Neil. It's a pleasure to join you here.
You and I have known each other for a little while. I really want to get you onto this show was really on the basis of that customer presentation you did with the Dynamics 365 user group here in Brisbane. It's great to have a local onto the show. Thanks for being able to record in the middle of the day instead of in the middle of the night which I often have to do. You presented a customer story and I'd love you to share the lessons learned from that project with these come the Amazing Apps audience.
Yes, it's has been a great journey. Thank you. And indeed we have known each other since a bit already here in Brisbane. It's great to be in the user group and kind of sharing the stories. And yeah look you have been at the other presentation and I think a lot of the successes of that project are also relating to how we have implemented it and the way we have implemented that project using agile but essentially as well using some of your Scrum techniques. I would be glad to share some details with you here.
Okay great. Well just before we do that and get started, I'd love to let the listeners know a little bit more about you. We start off asking guests to share what they had for breakfast this morning.
Thank you, Neil. I usually always have the same for my breakfast which is essentially a toast with banana and peanut butter.
So, it's really healthy.
But sometimes a little bit of honey which makes it a bit less healthy.
And I'd love to know how you got your first job after school and then after that if you can tell us what you're currently doing today.
After uni, essentially I mean the last year of uni, I was drawn to a program called a ISEC. Not sure if you if you know so it's essentially a student organisation and they're help students finding internships abroad. I enrolled in that and they find me an internship in Malaysia for a company called Mind Valley. Was a small startup at that time. It's a way bigger company today. I went for six months in Malaysia and I was actually a web developer for six months. I was actually coding in PHP. And then essentially, I met my wife there she was working the same company. She's Dutch. I'm half Polish, half Lebanese. She found a job in Belgium after that and then I followed her. And I started working Dynamics in Belgium. That was my first experience and then your second question was what I'm doing today right now.
Tell us tell us about your role today.
Four years ago I moved to Australia from Belgium. My role today is practice lead for a company called Empired, I’m a Dynamics… actually I'm a Microsoft Business Applications practice lead for Empired in Queensland.
Empired is one of the many S.I’s implement Dynamics 365 and Power Platform for our clients. I'm client facing most of the time and also dealing you know with pre-sales and kind of helping you know recruit people as well for our projects here in Queensland.
And tell us about the client you're from this recent successful project for. Can you share the name with us?
The name, it's Lives Lived Well. We started about one and a half year ago working with them. Lives Lived Well, what they do is they have about 70 offices / 70 centres here in Queensland and New South Wales (New South Wales is another region in Australia and another state actually in Australia). So they cover now two states from 70 locations. And what they do they provide support services to people that have drugs and alcohol issues. Providing care and consulting support and kind of trying to help those people get better and get rid of those addictions. They have about 300 staff. Lovely people. Great project. They have been evaluating a couple of a couple of platforms before choosing Dynamics. They went through a rigorous RFP process.
Were they an Empired client in the not for profit sector before the business applications project or was this a new client and a brand new project?
It was a brand new client and a brand new project for us. They were looking for ERP and CRM. The offering we made was Dynamics 365 Business Central (BC) plus Dynamics 365 CE for the client care.
Tell us a little bit about how the project kicked off. How did it get started?
They had a list of requirements, but, of course the requirements were not very detailed. There were still a lot of ambiguity in the requirements. The client was very honest and upfront with us at the beginning. They said look this is the list that we capture of the last year. We will need to review those to validate those and so forth.
Normally I say that to my client. They actually said that upfront. It was kind of nice. It was a good fit with introducing agile. It was new to them. That concept of agile. The I.T. director knew and had some experience but what we call now the product owner didn't. She was actually not called the product owner at the beginning. We started introducing agile more and more. It was a bit a loose Scrum at the beginning but we had sprints. We had the standups were not even… talking about beginning, right?... the standups were not even happening every day. It was every two three days and so forth.
All the ceremonies were not scheduled, especially at the beginning. We were kind of educating the client along the way. We actually divided that project in in phases right. So we had multiple phases and each phase had two do sprints. And after the second sprints or at the end of the phase we were asking the client to test. It was a little bit and each sprint was about three weeks or three weeks sprints and two sprints in one phase at the end of one phase. We were asking the client to test and then we were releasing that to a test environment and then to a production environment if they want to. We looked it a little bit loose at the beginning to introduce all this concept to the client. You know we set up everything even as you were a dev ops user stories features epics and look we were owning that at the beginning. To be honest right so we were actually writing the user stories based on what they provided us there.
Ok so you're saying that the Empired consultants were writing the user stories and managing the backlog at the start?
Yes, yes we were doing that. I mean for the client, with the client. Sharing that on meetings and on workshops and kind of discussing to introduce the client and look over the time of the projects after a couple of weeks the clan started to pick up a bit more you know how that works and how user stories are getting you know refined with acceptance criteria how we move them from one sprint to another. As we went to the project I think so the project had eight phases and each phase they said it was a three weeks two three week sprints after phase three or four we really started introducing pure scrum concepts at that times or just before I listen to your full lecture your course Neil. So it was kind of fresh in my mind.
Our project manager from Empired knew pretty well Scrum as well so together with my with my peer from Empired we organized a couple of sessions and really educating what is now the product owner. She was not really called at the time but educated about the roles and explaining look until now we have done this right. So you see those concept of agile they work for us it means that you can still repair your requirements and actually the client was very happy about that approach right in the beginning that we could shift things. So we expanded. That's real. That is that is a core concept of agile that you can't kind of evolve your requirements and based on your current needs we can still shift things.
So they were happy to kind of go one level further and you know learn more about Scrum. And I think from these four and until phase eight and now we are still helping the client so we still in phase 90 starting Phase 9 now. We are live and everything but there is no project continues after fees for we really introduce Scrum ceremonies. And we have daily stand ups we had sprint planning sprint we view sprint retro all were there and you know the face flies was a bit of a discovery for everyone. Okay. So it became a bit of a challenge to deduce all of the Scrum at that point or in fees to increase five because you run that project in kind of agile way from the beginning. The client knew how that was working. It was just more formalized from these five we really had those Sprint planning session two or three hours go through DevOps prioritize things and so look the first one was a little bit you know everybody needs to learn that formal process. But we went to the project as we went. I mean Phase 7 and 8. Now it's working great right. Everybody jumps in their jobs. We discuss things there you know we have the sprint planning the sprint reviews. So true out between face five and face eight. We kind of improve that process as well. And yeah it's really now that I think towards the end that is reduced a smooth that you find that smooth way of working using Scrum. But that was really successful in that manner.
Can I ask you about the project manager from Empired? You said they had some previous experience with Scrum. How critical was that to the success of the project? Do you think that a project team with no scrum experience could learn scrum on the project and be successful?
I doubt that really a team without any experience would be able to handle it. It would take maybe longer or they would need at some point I think some. So I got some great advice from that from that project manager from his experience. Look I had some experience from some colleagues at Empired as well so Raf Urbano, that we know together as well, he follow your course a little bit before me and he kind of did a couple of Scrum projects before as well so when I had some questions I could always check with him as well. So if you had at least someone to check with I would say then maybe but you'll get it was not the case for our psychology to compare Neil and yeah we had that support.
Yeah it's an advantage to have somebody that's a scrum master who's experienced in Scrum to lead you on that first project.
Yeah. Any it was good for example that I followed I had some a bit of experience in Scrum before. Then I followed your course so all those concepts gone off you know list made a bit more sense as well especially in the Dynamics implementation and then because that PM had Scrum experience we could together complement each other and each other's ideas when you were expressing that to the client instead of only myself you know trying to sell something or sell a concept to a client. I have a good you know I am seeing something and if I miss something or to kind of make it clear to the client, Jan (my PM) would complement, but this is this Dani means this and so it's always nice to have a second person to kind of back you up in in in some of those concept and sharing this experience so yeah quite often I find in our business applications projects we are working with product owners and for them it's the first time they've ever had that role.
Tell me about your product owner learning of her responsibilities. What was that process like for her? What advice would you give to other first time product owners, maybe a Microsoft customer who listening to this, who is maybe about to embark on a business apps project for the first time as a product owner?
We have a great product owner. So as I said during the first four phases so first four or five months, she was acting more so she was not called the product owner but she was acting as a product owner anyway right. She had not gone off power within the organisation to take the decision and if there was some you know some clarity she knew who to check with in the management to kind of get the answers right. So we were super lucky to have that product owner (she was not called product at that time) that had that level of responsibility already in the organisation. She was fully engaged. She was full-time from the beginning already on the project. She knew the business very well.
That's quite unusual actually.
Yeah and she knew she knew the business very well she was before a manager of a region so she went through a couple of roles even internally so she knew the business super well she could explain me and with the great context what why requirements was kind of important for them and using great example that made a super clear for us to understand. We were super lucky there. So when we kind of introduce the concept of product owner to her it was just a name but she was she was already wearing and taking those responsibilities actually. The only extra thing that she was doing she was managing now DevOps and kind of working in that.
But she has she's got no prior experience with Microsoft Dynamics 365 Business Central or Customer Engagement? Was she a technical person? Did she pick up business application concepts pretty quickly? Do you think that's necessary to know what an entity is and a view?
So she also had the product owner had the help of off another lady who was very I mean who knew the business as well as very technical good grasp almost concept very well. While the current product owner was more she knew the context from a business perspective also look there was a couple of challenges in terms of understanding some technicalities. But look when those were very detailed or very technical then that was a bit of a challenge then we were kind of and anyway those were discussed and we were discussing those with I.T. or with the I.T. support who were pretty much onboard as well with us and kind of grassroots comp concept pretty well. So going back to your essential question What would be the recommendation or the tips for a fresh product owner on a project? Definitely I think that would help if you know the business pretty well. That's one thing I think. I mean I wouldn't imagine having a product owner that doesn't know the business for who you know that they're implementing or they know who to reach that knows the business very well. Right. That would be the key I think. And having a level of responsibility is they need to be empowered to make to make decisions right. I mean to she was the product of I was making the sea or almost all the decisions were made fairly smoothly. Only those bigger ones where we were discussing some major design changes or you know some limitation of off of the platform that came true some very specific requirements. Well then she had to validate with you know with management or with her or her or her managers what do we do and what are the next steps right. But yeah most of the decisions be from the decisions on the user stories and the implementation would meet very smoothly. So that really helped. So having that level of responsibility within your organization we help as well I think.
Tell me about the development team. Was it purely an Empired team? Was it a blend of client and Empired resources. And how did that look over the course of the project?
Yeah. Yeah look like typical so it went so it wasn't one and a half year implementation in total. It's people change. Look change for natural reason. I think we only had one person that's gone or it was a developer from land as well from the clan that left very quickly at the beginning of the project. He was he was involved at the beginning and he left but then a lot of you will find someone else. And we carried over the changes on our side were more related to the type of work that was that that had to be done right. So we knew we needed to perform a migration so for the next sprint to sprint we're required a big piece of a migration. So we had a developer coming in helping us with migrating the data for instance right. So those were the changes that we experience mostly but it was a blend indeed. And that's I think that was great to have a couple of resources from the client. So we had a developer or a I.T. support from the client that could actually picked up pretty well Dynamics along the way and you know could resolve very quickly or the access for us. I was attending all the stand ups was building also part of the migration and integration has been billed as well buy-in by them so owning and having that level of expertise along the way we helped so we acted as one team indeed.
What is the relationship like between your project team and the Lives Lived Well I.T. team? You mentioned it was an I.T. manager there. Was that a good relationship or did you sit separately from their I.T. department?
Yeah. No it was great. I mean that's why I think it's such a nice story to share. It went super well the collaboration went well it was great from I.T. business and our self you re acting as one team almost from the beginning be honest so yeah I rarely have seen such a good collaboration between people as well. Very involved. And as you know the I.T. director presented with me at the user group right. Very proud and happy to share the experience. And the product owner was also there right at the presentation. So that always tell you that we can't always you know bond quite well. Yeah we were super lucky. I've been in previous project where that collaboration was really different and I share that with them as well. At the beginning or kind of the middle project I said while we're super lucky to have you guys acting as you act really don't change anything. This is the way you know collaboration works. It's when we all engage together. Yes we make mistakes. Yes. You know what. Not everything is is perfect every day but everyone has that same vision and that same goal.
Were there any other challenging stakeholders in the organization that that maybe didn't give you such an easy time?
Yeah. So indeed. Look we had some challenges with external stakeholders from large the well I mean the look the. It was an organization that required some reporting capabilities to be done by dynamics and essentially they wanted. They wanted great powerful reporting and that to be captured by Dynamics. They kind of put a bit of pressure on the Lives Lived Well to improve or to enhance some of the feature that Dynamics actually couldn't read deliver. And an example would be for instance right. We started with Voice of the Customer to capture a very complex survey for clients. Loves it while dealing with people that have issues they carry and send very complex surveys to those people to do to basically check how they evolve over time mid way to the project. Voice of the Customer was made I mean Microsoft deprecated Voice of the Customer. So we kind of transitioned to look at FormsPro which unfortunately at that time didn't offer the same level or functionality is essentially the Voice of the Customer. A lot was lacking right lacks you know complex skip logic, scoring, those things were not so easily done in FormsPro. That was kind of a key moment where also including that external stakeholder wanting those those reports based on those serve a need to be able to you know have scoring and very complex scoring right. So they kind of put a lot of pressure on Lives Lived Well and us to kind of come with a better a better way of capturing those surveys and we found something, another tool to help us with that.
What other the challenges either a technical or political did you face along the way in this project? It sounds like a dream so far but there's got to be some other challenges you faced, Dani.
Yeah look that was this one was the major one that came true. Look some challenges were about look like always a bit with it with the planning idea and just according everyone you know we were supposed to be alive I think and of January and then suddenly also because of that there's pressure from those external parties we had to kind of suddenly integrate with that another tool which cause not only a challenge in terms of yeah they've lopping that integration but also resourcing challenges we had to push to go live off one month. You know the migration integration depending on that was also kind of stretched resourcing. You know we as an aside we kind of resource the project and do end of January so we had to extend. So there were a couple of challenges around that and then doing the go live. Lives Lived Well went live beginning of March and so it went well for the first two weeks but then the COVID situation kicked in. So essentially what happened is all the workers providing services using that. I mean it was flying services using the platform. Suddenly the because the rollout was supposed to be I think over a couple of months to adapt all the teams they pushed the rollout squeeze the roll out in a couple of days almost or they brought it forward because they had to have everyone on the online platform. So it's kind of.
So this is and this is an early March just as all the corona virus as Rubio haven't please.
Well it was sort of look in Australia was was it so until mid-March everything was going or going more or less. All right. I think is from mid-March and they were alive so they went live to 7 or 8 of March. So one week life you know and and then the next week everything was what's happening everybody working from home. Look they need all access to dynamic suddenly because that's the online platform that will do the reporting and so yeah. So it's kind of pushed a bit deeper you know the rollout squeeze the rollout to a shorter period of time. And also Yeah look the platform was meant to support worker providing consulting services physically. Right. Listen I don't think it doesn't relocations to providers. Exactly. Exactly so switching everything to be now online provided and kind of I mean not much but we had some of the process is not completely optimized to be to be you know delivered remotely only.
So for example now we are we are looking with with lives of well at transitioning completely online for some of the delivery of the of the service right make incorporating portals and omni channel we prototyping all this with with with the client. But yeah those were the challenges right.
I'm really interested in your initial pitch to Lives Lived Well whenever they sent you this RFP as a systems integrator were quite often asked by a prospective client what is your implementation approach. And some Microsoft partners are choosing to pitch an agile approach or so are you scrum or some custom hybrid but then when it comes to the statement of work we're still using very traditional statement to work with requirements specifications in there and milestones based on analysis complete design complete and development complete and task complete has as part evolved its proposition during its proposal and in the statement to work on how does that how does that look I don't know how much of that you're willing to share but would be awesome if you can reveal a little bit of how you want the work.
Yeah yeah yeah look at that time. So we've proposed agile from the beginning right. So we said especially because as we discussed earlier with the clans they said look that's our list of requirements but we're not really sure about all of them we've probably to revise some of them along the way. So Agile was the perfect the perfect so we propose agile from the beginning and those sprints were in.
In our proposal right the sprints to have true experience and then a phase contain two sprints and then at the end of this of the end of the phase you the guys can do some testing and also having you know. So what we did from the beginning is a lot of interaction with the users anyway. And we said That's right. So we we presented was not only read the seminal work but when you presented. We said look we will be sitting with you and some with some of the users trying to understand how you work empathize with you do a bit of shadowing session and so forth. And after three weeks we will always do a showcase always right which later we renamed to sprint review all right. But thank you.
We called it showcase and here we call it showcase at the beginning after three weeks and look and that's how kind of I think help us also help us win but definitely provide a bit more clarity about how that process would what would happen how to think competition with happen but that was one and a half year ago over that time we also evolved right a bit more.
Now look that process is way more formalize Neil where look most of our clients have some sort of of of of understanding of the requirements but but they kind of also understand the approach that and then when when we pitch it to the clan that look over the course of the project we proposed to go jail because essentially we want to make sure the requirement is what you really need and you know we want to guide you to implementing that requirements in the best way possible in dynamics and that may mean that maybe a requirement that you think is in dynamic is actually not it's maybe even another product maybe even not even in any product maybe it's a it's a business change maybe it's a team your organization right.
We see that in you know when we present our proposals as well because that's the reality off of project right and that's what what scrums sound Agile is offer is that you know over the time of the project we kind of re-evaluate tees off of the requirements right.
So it's refreshing to hear you have engaged decline that operates like that I've often seen RFP is where the requirements are carved into a stone tablet and you're asked to provide a very concrete estimate and response to that. And I'm always amazed with this this idea that I can define all of the requirements upfront without meeting the implementation partner without discussing the requirements with them and without even knowing which product it is they're going to implement. You know it's great to hear that more and more clients are open to taking an agile approach and even admitting at the start of the project that this is what the requirements might look like. But we're going to change them along the way because that's that's a premature realization to come to.
Yeah yeah yeah. And just to complement on this I think we have that conversation with the clients at the beginning we say look most of the time or based on our experience the requirements are not set at the beginning and you will see they will evolve because that's the nature of the business Dustin and once we start to know each other you will know how we operate. We will not know about your business and we will be able to tweak those requirements to be even better but they cannot be set in stone at the beginning right. And even the client I mean it's not even a client.
If that prospect is is not willing to admit that or to work with that way then most of the time we we don we don't proceed or we don't simply win that work because we come with an approach which involves more safety and or discovery at least to kind of set a bit of an envisioning at the beginning just to make sure we have all the goals of the of the projects set and everybody understand the goal of the platform. We we want to make sure we understand the current challenges that the company is facing and the industry at the beginning and we might review some of the requirements right.
We make fun of you know all the clients may think a requirement of priority one is super important for them. But when we do the initial discovery or initial workshop we discovered that we that what they ask will cost them hundreds of thousands right. And by tweaking something else you know it will not meet that requirements hundred percent. You took of me half way. It's cost almost not because it's out of the box in dynamic so you kind of prioritize those requirements along the way and get the most out of there right.
So what was your experience like using Asia dev ops as a backlog management tool. I've been using Jiro on my last couple of projects as your dev ops I use a little bit on the side but I'm keen to hear more experience some teams that are using it day to day.
How do you find as your dev ops look we have been using Azure Dave of sorts quite a bit. Right. So I've used both Asia and Jira and I'm way more comfortable using dev ops. I wouldn't imagine running a project now without without that tool. So I've worked with GEO but I have limited experience in there. I feel totally comfortable now in dev ops where we know we we classify all our requirements in that box feature as user stories and we go to the level of task because essentially what we do with DRC we assign them to two members and especially empowered members so the user story stays at the level with the client the product on owns that task below. If there is something specific I need to do I need to do a design on something or a developer need to do configuration on something we put down in the level of task and also how we track Diyala is because you can track the remaining you know that sorry the original hours remaining and completed and we straightaway see how you know the capacity and the resourcing evolve over over the sprints. So that's that's pretty handy. We use a lot dogs as well and the team from live lives well we're happy working in Asia would have ops as well look they pick it up like everything right. So we get we go. We showed them and and how that works and they're using that internally now to assign things between them right.
Yeah. So as I said we use Starks to kind of for example I have quite a couple of tasks but I need to review things with with my clients like Doug those when they're ready to be deployed to prod a tuck them ready to deploy so it's kind of and I use a lot of collars as well because you base on things you can collar tasks and use stories. So it's again very colorful very visual for another client. We I mean we try to relax a little bit. It's a lot of inquiry a lot of first configuration but for another client we use actually the test suite in dev ops. So having the test plans test cases and then running and running read the test I think it's scored their steps in using using dev ops where you have a little poppet coming in next to your screen and then you test and then you flag passed feel and if something failed you can very quickly take a print screen off that you have the print screen too in that little up box and go straight away to the person that that developed that that because it's linked to the user so it goes to the person that's you know was working on that story so it worked pretty well on another project. So that's what we used for for test but I look I love it.
Yeah. Anybody who follows you on social media will know you're a pretty colorful guy. We use lots of colors in your solution envisaging diagrams tell us how we can find out more about your material and unfollow you on social media.
Yeah thanks Neil. So yeah indeed so I am. Look I passionate I specialize a bit more in mustering requirements and solution and visioning which is indeed a lot of diagramming and visuals and and kind of prototyping and so forth. So I have my personal blog So Danica Hill that's com I try to publish every you know two three four weeks I'm not really set yet to a specific time frame way you know when a few I have a good content then you know I I publish it then yeah and I'm on LinkedIn as well so I'm actually starting very soon a little bit of an Expedia experiment as well. And so you're earning some of that. Yeah. So I have discussed with you initially as well to thank you for for pushing me off on this and kind of guiding me there. But the idea is I'll be running a peer group on my school requirements and solution and visioning and the people what what is that that mean a peer group. Is essentially a couple of people that that I knew from the network that they thought look let's let me share my knowledge via a set of workshops about mustering requirements and solution envisioning. So we'll be having four workshops will be delivering what my tips and techniques along that journey of master requirements and solution and visioning. So you know how to understand your users how to shadow users and so forth and how to kind of challenge requirements without being too you know too offensive. So it's a little bit of a bit of a technique there right.
So having those I could do with some help though Dani I'm looking forward to this.
Okay good. So yeah. So having those workshops and I'm thinking about engaging the audience to really share the are questions and an exercise in challenges what they have done so that they learn I want to learn more about how people run those engagements right and those techniques. So that's my little experiment that I'll be running.
I'm sure once that's a success other people will be clamouring to subscribe and sign up so we'll make sure we get some links to that solution and envisioning and mastering requirements workshop in the show notes. Thanks Dani.
Thank you, Neil. Thank you very much.
The Amazing Apps show has had its first review on Podchaser. And it's got five stars! “Neil creates awesome content and his podcast is no exception. With the relaunch his first episode of Amazing Applications was on point and offered great advice from so many well-known names and faces and the Dynamics and Power Platform community. Looking forward to seeing what comes in future episodes. Great work, Neil.”
That’s from Megan Walker. OK so you know Megan is a friend of mine and a fellow Microsoft MVP.
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In the next episode, we'll revisit estimating business applications. Remember to subscribers so you don't miss it. Until then, keep sprinting. Bye for now.